Ep 126: Final Fantasy 7 (Part 8) - It's Not All Sunshine and Sephiroth w/ Barry Carenza

For the past few months, we've been speaking heaps of sugar about Final Fantasy 7. But it's not the perfect experience many fans my think. Taking up the position of someone less than enthusiastic about the game is co-founder of Premium Edition Games and co-host of the Nintendo Fuse podcast, Barry Carenza. On this episode, we talk about sky high expectations, FF7 as a franchise and the never ending, always chugging hype train. Join us, won't you?

STARRING

Barry Carenza (@HawkHellfire) of Premium Edition Games and @nintendofuse Podcast.

SONG COVERS

Stolen Materia (Final Fantasy VII) | Classical Guitar Cover by John Oeth Guitar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwlCVMytWcs

Listen to the Cries of the Planet (Final Fantasy VII) | Classical Guitar Cover by John Oeth Guitar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2l8p5jRrZI

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you In case you're new to a gamer looks at 40, you'll notice I try to stay on the positive side of things. But I also love differing opinions. It's kind of makes things a little spicy on occasion. So when the founder of premium edition games and co-host of the Nintendo Fuse podcast, Barry Kerenza, reached out saying he had some hot takes about Final Fantasy seven, I had to have a conversation with him. What resulted was a 50 minute talk where Barry aired out all of his grievances. And while Barry's passionate about his opinion as he should be, it's rooted in a true love for the Final Fantasy series, warts and all. And it's presented here in this episode completely unedited because I think he speaks for a large population of the Final Fantasy faithful. So let's join the conversation as we jump into episode 126, Final Fantasy VII, part 8, It's Not All Sunshine and Sephiroth with Barry Kerenza. So Mr. Karenza, I hear you have a spicy hot take on Final Fantasy VII, but before we jump into that, a big part of the first episode at least is going to be talking about the environment in which Final Fantasy VII was released. Because it was like the first Final Fantasy game that was like an event that everybody knew about. So what was the buzz for you wherever you were? Where were you at that time and what do you think? was the buzz like for you? Leading up to Final Fantasy 7. I was in high school at the time You know, I was more of an Nintendo kid. I did not have a PlayStation I had and 64 my friends had PlayStation and I Remember there was really no internet. It was really infants and days. So most of the ads were magazine ads And there was a commercial I remember distinctly, Final Fantasy VII and Ocarina of Time both had commercials that played very, very heavily at that time. it was like the video game commercials were actually quite rare, especially outside of kids' programs. The kids' programs, had some, but only for the big titles. Those two breached into more adult stuff, and they were definitely targeted more towards adults. And I remember... Not many people even talking about it. know RPGs were very niche at the time and I was a huge fan of RPGs. Super Nintendo and the NES both. You know, we talked about Final Fantasy already on the Super Nintendo was a big one for me and I loved one, two and three, which is really one, four and six because I hadn't played the others yet. And, you know, I enjoyed Mystic Quest and Chrono Trigger and Mario RPG and Dragon Quest or Dragon Warrior really at the time. I loved all those games, but I went N64 because I loved Nintendo stuff and little did I realize it was going to be such an RPG drought. I remember Baron Wasteland. was. was. This was this was well before Quest 64 and Aiden Chronicles, which everyone forgets and Hybrid Heaven and Paper Mario, which was probably the best RPG on the system. But but you know, my friend who had a PlayStation and I played all the PlayStation games over his house. were like brothers. We were always hanging out. And I remember he got and he's like, hey, you got to come over and play this game. I said, OK. So I went over to his house and he started a new file for me. Not that I was going to keep playing it, but I got to the Midgar escape. I got a good chunk of time in an afternoon and he was like, oh yeah, do this. I'm like, that's pretty cool. And he's like, this is amazing. said, it's pretty cool. And he's like, what do you mean? I'm like, what do I mean? I mean, it's nothing I haven't seen before. He's like, but the FMVs are pretty, I'm like, yeah, but the gameplay is. still the same. And he's like, but but but the materials and I'm like, the espers and six were better or in three were better. I like the Esper system better. So then just words started spreading a little bit more around our community. I was in the high school and you some people and the big thing was the whole air. Can you say or Aries? was Aries at the time. was Aries at the time, right? It was Aries at the time. Can you save Aries? know, and is there a way and of course, this was the age before internet or early internet where you know is Luigi and Mario 64 and run around and do all these things and everyone believed it and Photoshop was not a popular thing so if there was picture proof you believed it. was it. Screen proof. Yeah it was proof. So people like oh well here's Aries at the end of the game and blah blah blah and that was a big thing and people were making such a big deal about it and I looked at them and they said how are you not affected by this? I said bitch I went to Yang's you know wife and told her he died. He died! That was Final Fantasy 2, which was 4. I'm like, that was emotional. I watched Kefka poison Doma's water supply and watch Cyan hold his wife and son or daughter, forget whatever the child, like die. I'm like, this is nothing. You're crying about this? This Final Fantasy has done way worse and already in America. Yeah, why are you making such a big deal about this you watched you watched the Christian as his family goes on the phantom train to the afterlife and he says goodbye to the somber tones. Yeah. And it's like, are you making such a big deal? I watched Palom and Parham like sacrifice themselves and turn to stone. Yeah, two kids turned to stone. Yeah, you know, and it was just like, it was flabbergasted that and to this day. People put that as like one of their best, biggest video game moments and the saddest video game moments. And I'm like, did you not play the others? And the usual response is, I don't play anything before seven because it's not 3D. And I'm like, that's the weirdest thing. That's like watching a car race and seeing a car go a hundred miles an hour and go, wow, that's the fastest thing ever. it's like cars have been going a hundred miles an hour for... many, many years. no, but this was the first car. The first car I saw that did it. That's it. And I'm like, no, there's plenty of other cars that have done 100 miles an hour and way faster than that. Well before this car, but didn't matter. And it became this contention that people were like so obsessed over it. And I got frustrating because I'm like, this is not that big of a deal. And it's maybe your first experience with it, which I get it. And acknowledging this was my first experience with it is one thing, but to put it as like hyping it to this level that it was got insane. It was game pro and like, here's how to save areas and you'll get a game shark and you could save her, blah, blah, blah. And all this stuff and people are going crazy. Can you get to, you know, max final limit break with her before she dies and blah, blah, blah. And grinding all this, go back and play the others. There's way sadder stuff in the first six final fantasy games. Seven was. very tame in comparison. I know I like that perspective because I talked to a lot of people already who've had different experiences with Final Fantasy seven at different times. And you're right. Those who played where that's their first RPG, which there's a ton of people where Final Fantasy seven was their first, you the air scene was was was destroying. I didn't play seven until I was about 30 or so, like maybe like 14, 15 years ago, I played it on the PS3. was like, you know, I should just knock this game out. It was like PS1 classics or something. Like, you know, let me just knock it out on sale. my reaction was, oh, this is fine. Yeah, it's fine. I like this. This is pretty cool. This is neat. I like the materia system. This is all fine. So I don't have that nostalgic thing, but you were there. I was there. And you still, you were the one on the playground being like, hello. Selis jumps from a cliff in desperation because she thinks she might be the only person left alive on the planet. And we're concerned about the flower girl getting stabbed. not to demean that moment at all, but you're right. Final Fantasy has been doing this for a while. And it's very funny that that was your reaction then and now. And even the Selis scene, I didn't know at the time when I first played Final Fantasy VI as three, was that if you fed Sid the faster fish, The healthier fish he survived. didn't know because it was, didn't have a guide. So I just grabbed whatever fish. So he died in my game. Sid died and then Sel was convinced, you know, goes to commit suicide and sees locks bandana and all that, like, like holding it and like that, that's rough. Blew me away. Like that was so emotional. And until this day still brings me to tears because there is that raw emotion there. And seven may have had prettier graphics in quotes because they really have not aged the best, but It's just funny to it was like I was alone in the world. It was like, how are you not? How are you not on this bandwagon? And I'm like, to me, this is not that great. Of course, the Sephiroth bandwagon, because everyone was like Sephiroth is the best villain in the world. I'm like, Kefka, did you not see what he did? Did you not like Sephiroth didn't murder babies? Did like what did you have to one? Kefka actually one. Succeeded. Sephiroth was just a guy with daddy issues and clone DNA and all that stuff. And he just he flipped and went psycho. Kefka was born psycho. You know, it was just one of those things where it just got overblown. And it's and Seven is an interesting I think Seven is an interesting artifact. I my end of the day take on Seven. It's probably not in my top five Final Fantasies. probably six. If I had to like maybe one day I'll rank them because I'm spending so much time in this world right now. Maybe I'll just do a ranking one of these days, but I like it fine. It's much better to me as a piece of fiction. If you watch a video that tells the chronological story and like I've been watching some videos and refreshing myself for the series. And if you watch it in that way where it's like this chronological, it tells a story chronologically. It's actually really good fiction. It's actually a pretty cool story, but the largesse of Cloud and Sephiroth, I think, and the way Final Fantasy VII is told in the game, the original game, of course, masks all the other neat things that are going on. Like, I forgot Hojo is a thing. Like, I forgot. I had no idea. And he's like the main antagonist. Like, he's really the guy behind the guy. You know, I forgot about Rufus and all that, you know, but because the largesse of Cloud and Sephiroth. Over everything. Yeah, I remember before I fully play like I only played it that much and I knew my friend had played it and because again I still didn't have a PlayStation yet but when I finally got a ps2 before I got a ps1 and My main reason for getting the ps2 was Grand Theft Auto 3 and to play PlayStation 1 RPGs that I missed so I got to you know spend an entire summer just It was college. I was off of school. I wasn't working that summer. So I said I'm just playing ps1 RPG is great. I And on a lot of Squaresoft games, one of the games I played was Energetz, which was a fighting game. And I had played it once, like, in an arcade machine, but I was like, oh, cool, I'll play it and, you know, unlock all the characters. Of course, it's known as the Final Fantasy fighting game because it's got Cloud and Sephiroth. And then I had an unlockable Zack, and I was like, who's Zack? So I asked my friend who, again, who played, and I said, so this unlockable Zack guy, he's a Cloud clone. Like, who is he? He's like, I don't even remember Zach. I don't know who you're talking about. said, okay. So then when I played Final Fantasy, I'm like, want to play it myself. And I played through and I'm like, got to that revelation. And I was like, this character that people have been boosting up this cloud is this great character is just Zach. He doesn't even have his own personality. He stole it from Zach and people who have played the game at the time. You know, now people know who Zach is, but at the time. who had played it, didn't even remember it. was just like a passing character. And I'm like, that is the personality that people really liked. Was Zack hidden or disguised as Cloud? Cloud's personality was blank. we didn't know who he was. And it just blew my mind. I'm like, this is the character you're a champion? This character who doesn't know anything? And again, what I find very interesting about the character of Cloud, is that's actually an interesting idea. I there's a bunch of fiction that I like that has the story of the trope of somebody did a bad thing. So they take somebody else's identity so they don't have to live with the bad thing they did. Like that's an interesting trope to me. And there's a bunch of fiction that has that idea in it. And I like that idea. I think that's interesting. Cloud is actually a pretty sad character, as is Sephiroth. Sephiroth is a very sad character where you when you realize what's going on that most of the time it's really just jenova pretending to be sephiroff but again what i really find interesting about final fantasy 7 is that it was this giant blockbuster that was cloud sephiroff and that's all most people remember now obviously you talk to true fan like real fans they celebrate all the characters and i've had those conversations i've also had conversation with people who just talk cloud and sephiroff because it's like it's interesting it's just interesting only that though Because if you think about that time, it wasn't just like Energist. Energist was marketed as the Final Fantasy fighter, which of course Cloud, Sephiroth, and the reason Zack was there is because it was a clone character. It was easy. Change the head, boom. then you had Final Fantasy tactics where Cloud was unlockable. And then what really, for me, was when they started doing the compilation of Final Fantasy VII, where they did Before Crisis, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, Final Fantasy Avid, and Children. And I was just like, really? Do we really need this much materia? I mean, I'll be honest, Crisis Corps was a better game in my opinion. really liked that story. And that was X, that was X story. but like, even with all that, it was like, it was still like haunting me. like high school was haunting me at this point, because I was now in college. But then a game came out while I was in college called Final Fantasy 11, which I can't wait to talk about. I love Final Fantasy 11. If you played Final Fantasy 11 back in 2004 when that game came out or 2003 if you played on PC, I was a PS2. So I played 2004 when it came out, you saw something whenever you walked around Juno or Bistock or Sandoria or Windy, you saw everybody and their mother was XX Cloud XX. X, X Sephiroth, X, X, X, Sephiroth, one, one, one, like everybody named Sephiroth of some variety. And it was just like, Oh my God, get originality here. You create your own character, be yourself. And it's like, no, I got to take the identity of cloud or Seth. And it was funny. And it's like, Oh my, it's unbelievable. How many, like, did you guys not have any imagination? Like, is that all? Yes, not. That's so funny. I love that. That's really good It's the true thing and I still see it in like 14 but nowhere near what I saw then because then it was way more new new current and and It just and I think that was the biggest thing is that it was just so it wasn't that seven was a bad game because it wasn't Seven was a good game. Like you said I put it mid-tier. I think it's a mid-tier game. I thought I had some unique unique characters unique stories unique ideas And it wasn't that it was executed poorly because it wasn't. It was a mid game. It didn't do anything first other than you say the materia system, but materia system was kind of like the Esper system in a sense. Yeah. It's kind of combined Espers and jobs kind of sort of. Kind of sort of. But what it was is it just blew up to the point that everyone thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. whenever something gets that big, you have to look at it critically. You can't just go like, it must be because everyone has says it. At least I'm not the kind of person that falls into that. I'm like, no, I need to analyze why is this the case? And the reason why it's a case is for many people was their first RPG. And like you mentioned, the marketing campaign helped solidify that. And that's just of the time. I say, if you look at it objectively, not subjectively, and I'm not trying to say if this was your first RPG in your childhood and you love it, that's fine. But if you look at it objectively in the world of RPGs, It wasn't even the best of the first seven Final Fantasies, let alone counting other series like Dragon Quest or Warrior, Chrono Trigger, the Monas series, Grandia, you know, all these other great series that had come out. It was mid-tier even then. It just introduced FMVs, which got a lot of people excited, even though we had just got through that whole terrible FMV. Era where everything had FMVs and Sega CD and 3DO and CDI and it was a terrible era If you were not there for the beginning of CD games, it was terrible. It was not lots of loading screens lots of Five frames per second videos of bad actors. It just yeah, it was just a bad So unpleasant era. Yeah, and and and it got to a kind of a deterrent, especially As we go into the next game with FMVs where God help you if you summon the GF and eight because you might as well just go make a sandwich because some of those are just ridiculously long. We we can chat about a I I I don't have lot of time, but I am going to do something on eight. I've never played it for three hours earlier this year and I got three hours in and I said that's enough. That's I I'm excited to talk about eight, but. But my point is they took they took what people loved in quotes and I say that in quotes because I don't think people necessarily loved it for that I think it was just something new and shiny at the time was these FMVs and you couldn't do that on the Super Nintendo or the Sega Genesis or anything like that So for a lot of people they saw that like it's like a movie. This is cool And they said like that's what people want and for a while square was known for their FMVs Like that was their thing like it's got to be an FMV And to the point that even when they re-released 4, 5, and 6, and 1 and 2 on the PlayStation 1, they actually added FMV openings and stuff like that, and FMV endings, and for certain scenes, which I appreciate. I think that's cool. But there's a big difference between banking your entire game on it and then adding it as an opening and an ending. And if you look at the original 7, The graphics, everything was, was, you know, static, pre-rendered backgrounds and the characters were blocky. Like the graphics were not good. And I think a lot of people remember it being better than it was. And maybe it's because they remember the FMV versions. the other thing that, really got me about seven, and this was nothing to do with the game itself. It's just the, I, when I played final fantasy, I started with one. And Final Fantasy was always that, it was fantasy. And as it started getting on one, for at least at that point one, four and six, it was fantasy, fantasy and six started getting some steampunk. But it wasn't, it was built into the story about the war of the magi and the magic disappearing. So now technology was starting to come and magic was coming back. And I'm like, okay, that's cool. But then you look at seven and you got cloud riding on a motorcycle, riding down the stairs. and you've got trucks and you've got this futuristic city and I'm like, this is no longer fantasy. This is like set in a futuristic world. Is this really Final Fantasy? And obviously that continues further into eight. And you can tell that Square realized that with their course correction in nine. Where they went all the way back and they're like, we're sorry. Reverse course. It was an apology. We're sorry. You know, and they obviously haven't done that again until 15 really, was again, 16 was kind of like a reverse. go back. Um, 13 could be argued, but it wasn't as bad. It was also kind of another planet kind of deal too. But, but you look at that and I was looking at, I'm like, this isn't final fantasy to me. This I'm not riding up an elevator with a spider robot attacking me. Like that doesn't tell scream final fantasy to me. Interesting. What screams Final Fantasy is seeing Bahamut, like as an actual dragon and, and, know, fighting and, and just warrior and thief and, and black belt at the time, which was monk and, know, like red mage and white mage and black mage. That's Final Fantasy. Summoner and, and, or caller, if you will, and blue mage and dancer and, and not what we got people with spiky hair, with big giant swords and, you know, yes, Tifa was a monk. That that's cool. Barrett had a freaking machine gun for his arm. That's not Final Fantasy. It is to a lot of people because that was their first game. Right. But it's not Final Fantasy in the growing up with Final Fantasy. And it was very jarring. And it was a very Final Fantasy seven is, I think, more important than it's good. And that's not taking away from Final Fantasy seven. It's not. But I think it's more important because that's the game where everything changed. And forever forever changed except for nine kind of course corrected and we more to that fantasy style. But so did 1011 like 1011. Yeah, they they course corrected and it's kind of a 10 still dabbled in that mixed world after Final Fantasy nine, which when Palpatine says tonight, I'm actually playing it right now for the first time. I'm like a third of the way in. I'm actually really enjoying nine. I'm it's a lot of fun. I think it's a lot of fun, especially after the icky taste of eight, I did not like. but um Yeah, I guess we're trying to think it through Final Fantasy 10 probably is just so much of a mix of Technology and magic and fantasy as six does probably probably similar kind of I mean I mean outside of the airships mean but airships right there from the very beginning right, right It's staple at this point and sid, know, it started in two and retroactively added in one. but the uh That was really in but seven and eight and 15 really are very much outliers in that technology where cars and vehicles and motorcycles and like they play center stage and like that never says and I guess fantasy be anything but when you think Final Fantasy at least when I think Final Fantasy I think more medieval which is how it started and same with Dragon Quest you know could you imagine Dragon Quest 12, suddenly they hop into a BMW and they're driving around. would be like, what the hell is this? What's going on? Dragon Quest stayed true to the fantasy nature. And some people may say that to a fault. I disagree. I think that was the whole point of the series is that it is supposed to be more of a fantasy setting. And Final Fantasy always was too. And it's still a fantasy setting. It's just more of a futuristic. It's like Star Wars fantasy setting. Right. not Final Fantasy, that's Star Wars. And if you remember Final Fantasy, Spirits Within, the Final Fantasy movie, which I enjoyed very much so, but the biggest complaint that people had with it is this doesn't feel like Final Fantasy. And if you watch it, it's very Star Wars-y, sci-fi, futuristic, and that same sentiment is what I had towards them. I think that's an interesting interesting interesting perspective. I think you give voice to a lot of people who feel the same way about Final Fantasy and early on in this series, which seems like years ago now. It really is feel like forever ago. I positive, you know, the age old question. What is a Final Fantasy? And the answer to that is it's different for everybody, right? And that's and that's and that's a true and that sounds like a cop out statement, but it's really true because Final Fantasy could be a number of different things to a number of different people based on your experiences. It is time once again to say thank you to my wonderful patrons and a brand new member. Cue that DJ horn I'm not gonna put in. It's not happening. I a lot to do today. Welcome, welcome to Lucas Thompson. He signed up on the $3 fan tier. He's gonna be getting these episodes on Friday as opposed to Monday. And I am very grateful for his financial support. He joins other stalwarts like Lindsey Harney, Philip Becker, Joey Coro of Perfect Storm Gaming, Terry Kinnair, Greg Seward of the Player One Podcast and Generation 16 series of videos, Games with Coffee, the Let's Play Princess of Nerds Abroadcast, BT Gobbles, Tim Knowles formerly of the Lidist, Julian of the Stage Select Podcast, Seth Sergel of the All End Media Network, and finally the one and only fantastic Pete Harney. like to be the second person this year who has signed up for Patreon, then go to patreon.com forward slash eight gamer looks at 4040 check out the tiers and sign up today. What's your take on the story of Final Fantasy VII? What's your feelings on that? I mean, the story itself, I feel is okay. I mean, don't think it inherently does anything wrong at all. And there's a lot of fun to be had. There's a lot of fun characters to be had. Again, I think what you're talking about is nostalgia. know, to me, the biggest problem with VII is those that feel it's their favorite and it was their first game and all that, they feel it could do no wrong. It was infallible. It was infallible. Everything was perfect. And you're thinking on as a kid, maybe it was your first and it blew your mind. This never seen this before, which is a shame. You should have had a super Nintendo or Nintendo to play those other stuff. But still, you know, you hadn't seen it before, but if you go back objectively and, and look at it, you see there's those issues. And like you mentioned, it's, does have its issues. And the worst part for me, like, again, the story is set as mid. I didn't think it blew me away when I did play through it. I thought it had some really interesting concepts with the live stream and all that stuff. I thought that was really, really cool. I liked where they were going with it. And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it. I feel the those, those outspoken that have really pushed square into thinking that this was the greatest thing in the world is what also hurt it. I don't know if you remember this, but when the PlayStation 3 was first shown off or early showing off, there was a tech demo for Final Fantasy VII's open. I don't know if you remember this. They showed it off at E3. It was the opening of Final Fantasy VII on the PS3. People went crazy and Square said it was just a tech demo. And then people started sending death threats to Square because it was just a tech demo. And seeing things like that showed me that people became obsessed and now like I just after the compilation of final fans like seven like they were this was bad like this was to the point that they're so obsessed with seven it actually hurt seven in my eyes even though it's not the game's fault is not the people's fault and obviously that that convinced square to say let's remake it which of course they remade it and they literally said buy a ps4 for final fantasy seven remake but it's only the first of three parts. if you want to play part two and even the 1.5 because there's the intermission you now have to buy a ps5 Sorry, you bought a ps4 for it You only get part one and I guarantee you ps6 is going to be part three and the second part has underperformed and they're like Why is it underperforming? It's final fantasy 7 and the truth is is one it's the middle part of the story two Does it really need to be three parts and and three? Maybe you're listening to the outspoken people that are my God, Seven is the greatest ever and not the true fans, not the fans that are like, we love everything of the series and we want new games and would rather to see Final Fantasy 17 and 18 out of that instead of more Final Fantasy Seven. And, you know, and it just got to that point where people hilled it on this pedestal. Like, this is the greatest story ever told. everyone, like I have to read this to my children because everyone, and it's like, no, it's an okay story. It's an, it's an okay game. It's a good game, but you're holding it to such a pedestal that you're detracting from it. And whenever you hold anything that has high standards and you try and present that to somebody, you present it in a way that's infallible. You present it in a sense that nothing could ever touch this. Nothing could ever beat this. And to anybody that falls into it. If it doesn't meet these high standards, you now set to the game, they're going to find it as a disappointment. Wait a minute. You said this was the greatest thing since sliced bread and I'm halfway through it. And I'm like, there's nothing special here. Why did you do that to me versus just say, here's a game going with zero expectations and enjoy. And I feel that's one of those games that is impossible to go into with zero expectations at this point because of how blown up it is. it's to the point that this is probably dating myself, but You know when the sixth sense came out it was a big thing if you revealed the secret of it Which now most people know of course, but it was like all don't do it And I felt like it was the same thing with seven like Aries dies. no, you ruined seven for me It was like if that's your big takeaway from the game something happens midway through the game and And it's ridiculous. I don't know if you're going to cover the remake or not, or if it's going to be part of this whole further down further down. Cause I haven't played them yet. So I will eventually down the line. yeah. Okay. Cause cause I was going to say one thing I was really worried about with the remake because I did play it. Keep in mind, after I said all this, I did play seven remake. I played intermission and I played a rebirth. I was really worried that they were going to do something where they were going to be like, Ares is going to be safe. Like, or Eirith now is going to be safe. Like they're going to give fans what they want. And they actually didn't. They didn't, stuck with it. And I was like, I'll give you props there. They're doing a lot of other things, which I'm really, I was excited for what they were doing. And I was just like, at the end of remake, they set it up and it was like, what are you doing with this? You're now making a new story. And then rebirth is kind of like, we are, but we're kinda not. everything I was hoping to see happen. Happens and I don't know if you know what happens or anything or if you know I I've been I've tried to stay away from the rebirth a little bit I do want to play them eventually for this series Have you ever seen the cover of rebirth like the actual physical cover? Okay, so then you know, there's three characters on the cover right right right right? Yes, and and one of those characters shouldn't be there And and I was excited because what happens at the end of remake was like they're going to do something and they're going to bring Zach back and now he's going to be in the party and they're going to have like, they're good. They love the love triangle. Like final fantasy seven is also known for the stupid love triangle, which I'm sorry, Aerith goes with Zach that and Tifa goes with cloud. I'll say it there, but, they're going to do something here and they're going to bring Zach into it. And that's going to change that dynamic. And I was all excited for it. And they didn't do that. They didn't do that at all. He's in the game minimally. You play as a minimally. It it it they set these expectations up to do something new and they just like are we gonna play it safe? And we're just gonna we're gonna use and I know it's tired now. I'm a big fan of multiverse I love it, but they we're use the multiverse to say look Zach's in another world and I'm like Come on, if you're gonna do something crazy bring them together But now it's the same game but with more padding and and a terrible terrible jungle level with beautiful jungle music but a terribly designed jungle level and terrible terrible horrible pacing if you're a hundred percenter, which I am. So if you're, if you, you like, not a hundred percenter. So for me, I can, I can, depends on the game. Some games for some reason I just get into, for example, I very, not really maybe last month or two months ago, finally a hundred percented vampire survivors. And, and I love that game. And sometimes the game gets its hooks in me, but that's a rarity. Like that's a rare. I, that's a rare. If it's one of those things like if you ever played platforming games like you Mario 64, do you get all the stars before moving on to the next level kind of deal like trying? No, no, I I if it's a if it's a Let me think it through No, I don't have to I've kind of got to the point in my life where I'm like, I can miss that star if it's not if it's if the journey is not fun then I'm like I can I can so reap rebirth is like the open world thing where they take like the Ubisoft technique with all the towers and Breath of the Wild style too. And each of the worlds are six big like levels that have a crap ton of the stuff and it's all the same objectives. Every single one has the same objectives outside of like the main story. And it was like nice. It was like small level open worlds, small like per chapter. like, this is good. Like let's space it up. And then you get to like three chapters in a row that's like. half of an open world, open world, open world. I do 100 % before moving on. And I was like, I'm spending 20 hours on these three chapters to three open worlds in a row or open level. I'm like, this pacing is terrible. I need something to break it up. But that's the bloat. And they're doing that because of the original Final Fantasy VII. They're doing that because Square, the development costs are ballooning right now. Tomb Raider has underperformed. That's why they sold the IP. All these games are underperforming. So they said, let's go back to what people apparently want. Final Fantasy 7. And they did it in a way to absolutely milk. If any other company were to say, we're going to take a game and sell it in two, in three parts completely. people would be irate. Yeah. You have to get the entire story. You have to pay a minimum of $170 for this one game. It is giant monolithic game is a hunt. Yeah, three, whatever.$59.$55, whatever. Yeah. And they've done it before. Like Zeno Saga, which I'm sure I'm listening might be like, Oh, Zeno Saga was supposed to be six games and they had to cut it down to three because and you know what? You're right. But Zeno Saga was set out to be three or six, originally complete games. telling one larger story. weren't taking Xenogears and saying, we're going to remake Xenogears and we're going to cut it into thirds. They didn't do that. They were telling an original story set out to be that way, which is fine. If that's how you're going to set up the game telling sequels, that's great. But when you're remaking a game and you're saying, oh, you're getting it in three parts, that changes the dynamic. Now, the people who love Final Fantasy 7 and think it's the best thing since sliced bread won't care. They'll gobble it up. They're the people who bought it on PS4, PS5, physical, digital, PC, know, bought a PS5 just for it. You know, if they said 6 is PS5 Pro exclusive, they would buy a PS5 Pro just for it. That's the minority. The majority of people will be like, I'll get it on sale or I'll check it out what it is and how good it is. you know, it's Final Fantasy Uncharted, honestly, is what that is. it's not bad. I enjoyed it. But again, it's I think it's a better game overall than the original But not by much, but at least the original is complete It's a whole complete game and But and then yes, there's more to tell obviously there's there's crisis core, which is the before story That's like a prequel fine. I love crisis core dirge's service was that needed was advent children really needed was before crisis really needed Was was that I forgot this was the new Final Fantasy 7 There's a mobile game right the same time as rebirth. That's also on Steam. I forget its name Was that needed like no the reason they're doing this is because they are milking it and you see it You see the effects of seven in other games too like chocobo GP. I don't know if you played that that's on the switch No, I really like it. It's a good kart racer, but they they tried to do a season pass thing it failed Since then, they've decided to just make all the characters unlockable. But in order to get you to buy the season pass, the season pass allowed you to earn points to spend on the first season pass character, because usually season passes of these type of online games have an exclusive character. That exclusive character just happens to be Cloud. The second one was Squall. They knew what they were doing. Yeah, right. They knew what they were doing. They were doing that. But Terra was base game. Like, no problem. You know, and it's like... they did that on purpose because they're like, how do we get people to buy this cloud? People will buy a pile of if we put clouds picture on it and say cloud took this turd himself, people will buy that. And, you see it. And it's not even an exaggeration at this point because you see it in all these other final fantasy and other spin-off games. You see it in super smash brothers. Why was cloud thrown in there? Cloud didn't appear on this on Nintendo until the switch. But Cloud was on the Wii U. Why? Why wasn't Terra? Why wasn't Locke? Why wasn't Cecil? Why wasn't Warrior of Light? It would make sense. They put Cloud because they knew it would sell. And if you notice, they only gave two songs because the 3DS version of Smash 4, you got two songs, so the Wii U only got two songs. And then you look at Smash Ultimate when they added the DLC characters, and Square finally gets multiple representations. They get Hero. which is great, something for Dragon Quest, but then, hey, let's get a character for Final Fantasy again, another one. And who did they get? Sephiroth. So you have two Final Fantasy characters representing Final Fantasy out of 16 games. You put two from the same game. Like to me, that just says they should have done another character. They should have done it on another, you know, Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VIV, IV, even if they said... Let's do Clive from Final Fantasy 16 because that's a new thing coming up. Let's do Titus or Auron. Like Titus would fit into the smash. Auron would be awesome in Smash. That'd be a really cool character. a Moogle. a Moogle. A Moogle would be great. A Moogle would be great. That's a very good point. But they didn't because a seven. It's like they were so brainwashed. And when you see things like that, to me, somebody who never fell into the hype and and saw it objectively and was just like the more I see this overblown the more I'm starting to resent this game even though it's a good game and then you see things like this I can't look away everywhere it's 777 so I Final Fantasy 7 is is to Final Fantasy series as Ocarina of Time is to Zelda That's kind of how I see it. I a hundred percent agree with you. Yeah, it's it's a game. That's fine It's fine, but the largesse of it has made it this bigger than life thing. That's hard to, it's almost unassailable. What happens whenever there's a new Zelda game? They compare it immediately to Ocarina of Time. What happens with this new Final Fantasy? They compare it to Final Fantasy VII. So a hundred percent. And at the time, again, I had it in 64. I got Ocarina of Time at launch. I'm a huge, huge, huge Zelda fan. Just beat Echoes of Wisdom. Loved it. I loved Ocarina of Time and I watched people put it at the top of the games list and I'm like, Link's Awakening was my favorite. Like that was a game boy. And that was already out at the time. So it didn't even hit my top Zelda list when it was new, let alone then. And so I saw it too. And I have the same resentment towards Ocarina of Time for that. I've lessened that on Ocarina of Time than I have for Seven, simply because I feel we're so far divorced from Ocarina of Time. that people have started to look towards other things. I'm seeing Wind Waker put in there, Skyward Sword, Breath of the Wild, course, Tears of the Kingdom. Seeing these other games start to top that list and move Ocarina of Time down, which I'm happy to see. And now people can go into Ocarina of Time enjoying it as the first 3D Zelda game and not this infallible perfect piece of art because it wasn't. Seven, however, is constantly still in the mainstream. I was no joke. I was watching this video last night on YouTube. It was a someone doing their top 20 songs on the keyboard from video games, which was great. And they did a bunch of games. Zelda was there, Mario and stuff like that. But they did the prelude, you know, Final Fantasy's prelude, which is great. But they labeled it Final Fantasy 7 prelude. I'm like, but the prelude is not like the prelude is original. Like that's not the first place it appeared. You know, it's like the theme of Final Fantasy. It's not just seven. That's like fans. They've granted fanfare is different per game, but it's still that that is original. That's not from seven. Yeah, you're right. That's very funny that they would do that. How interesting. And it was like and they didn't do that with other series like when they did like Great Fairy Fountain, they just said Zelda. They didn't say which Zelda, they was just Zelda. But that one specifically, they were like Final Fantasy VII, which tells me that's probably the only one they played and they think it only came from VII. it's like, I still see that to this day and that's just fan things and I'm not taking away from that video. The video was great. The person was very, very talented. But it's like you see those things and it's just like grading, grading. Another instance of VII being used to manipulate the audience and the... really mean this is Final Fantasy Advent Children, which we talked a little bit about. Do you remember how Final Fantasy Advent Children launched? I do not. I don't remember how it launched. So it didn't launch on DVD or VHS or Blu-ray or anything like that. The first place it launched was on PSPUMD, the UMD movies. They used it to sell the PSP and then afterwards they went to to home movie, you know, you know, Blue Rays and then really, yeah. I have a theatrical release. think it might have. It might have had a theatrical as well. But the first home was UMB video. And I believe I might be wrong, but I believe it was a pack in. It might have been a pack in. I do. I do know that the Dissidia Final Fantasy or the PSP when the city at first came out or might have been do a decim. It was like a silver PSP. I think it was the city. one it came with final fantasy seven having children along with it, but it was used as a I think you're looking it up now I'm not mistaken. It was used as a marketing tool to get people to buy the PSP because it Sony's first foray into Portable and a Nintendo dominated thing. How do we get people to come to our system? Let's use final fantasy seven And it was a movie so funny. That's very very interesting I, you know, it's funny. I'd rather talk to you than look it up. It's, it's, it's, that's amazing. That's, that's a Final Fantasy seven. And then that's what I was. That's one of the big reasons why I was so interested in doing this, this series and doing Final Fantasy seven. It's not for the game. Cause again, I liked the game and it's a game I played and enjoyed and I thought was fine. I was like, okay, this is, this is neat. This is cool. I didn't have that overwhelming love for it. But Final Fantasy 7 again, it's just that it's the closest the series has to like the flagship. Like that's like the flagship game of Final Fantasy. If you ask most people, video game people about the game Final Fantasy, they'll probably talk about 7. And also, and just because A, historically the most people probably played it because you had new people to the series in Final Fantasy 7, plus old heads like you and I who played it. And you know, they didn't play one or two, right? So I find it interesting in it's a it's again, it's like it's like a I think I said this in another interview. It's like an action movie directed by an indie director. It's like it's like a blockbuster done by someone who is only known for like indie dramas. All of sudden, Marvel gives them a bunch of money and they make, you know, Shang-Chi or something. It's it's it feels like a blockbuster that has all these Cool ideas in it, but at end of the day, it's still a big blockbuster more than I think even games that came after it like eight and nine, eight tried to be the blockbuster. Ten, I think is the closest that came to it. But even then it never felt as ubiquitous as seven. Seven is this all encompassing thing. Yeah, it's it's and I think like I said, that's that's the biggest issue is it it's taken on a new role. And like you said, you asked somebody, they're probably going to go seven. Like what's your favorite Final Fantasy character? And they're going to say Cloud. And there'll be, or Sephiroth or another character from seven. And you say, well, have you played any others? And most likely it's going to be no. Or, well, I tried eight or I tried 10. And like, that's it. So your favorite character of a series of 16 plus games, cause there's a lot of sequels and spinoffs is you have three games in there. So your sample size is incredibly low. And like I said, the majority of people that I talked with at the time, like I'm talking, you know, 1997 to probably 2005 ish. During that time period, every time I said that they loved Seven, I said, well, did you play one to six? And they said, no, I can't. I can't. I can't do sprites. It's too ugly. I can't go back and look at it. I'm like, it's too ugly. What are you talking about? That's wild. That's very of its time. That is a sentiment of the time. That's totally a set. And there are some sentiments of that now. Obviously, I think times are changing a bit when it to pixel art and things like that. But you're 1000 % right. Nobody was playing pixel art Final Fantasy games in 1999. Like no one was doing it. was not very few people. Maybe old people like me. Again, I was in 99. I was 19, 20, you know. So old heads like me were probably still playing it relatively old heads, but nobody contemporary. That's a different thing down the line. Do think do you think that's changed at all? Like I I What do you think you think I think so? And I'm seeing it like with the pixel remaster Right. So I'm seeing a lot of people go through like on Twitter and stuff saying like I'm playing through one to six for the first time because I I never did before and I figure I'll do it and I'm seeing them like do the reviews and that you know, obviously one to three Rougher, you know, but they're early, you know, you gotta give them and then they get the four or five and six and they're like Like my god, I'm blown away by these games like what the heck these games are exceeded my expectations And I'm like they were always that good Yeah, you just didn't play them for choice because it wasn't for lack of release because if you think about it foreign foreign six had Super Nintendo for five and six had PlayStation for five and six had Gameboy Advance for had had PSP as well You had the digital versions and the virtual consoles. You had the mobile versions, of course. There was a bunch of different ways to get... 4 had a remake on the DS as well. You had a bunch of different ways to get 4, 5, and 6. And you didn't. For whatever reason, you didn't. And maybe that's just a lack of desire because you were... you were scared or you just didn't think you were going to enjoy it. And now that you're more mature, you want to look back. And that acknowledgement is great. Now the question is, does it top seven? It's impossible for those people for the most part because seven is cemented in their head as the infallible pedestal that can never be topped. So no matter what you see, it's really hard. And this doesn't go with seven. This is just anything. When you have anything on that pedestal, it's really hard to be objective. and look at it. We have a favorite movie and a sequel comes out. It's really hard to be like, well, does it top it? I still prefer the original better. And if there's three or four or a remake, how many times you hear that? I'd still prefer the original over the remake. if they're, you know, it's nostalgia. It's that comfort. It's that bringing you back to your childhood. And for many people, Seven was their childhood. And I can't, I'm not going to take that away. I don't want to take that away. I'm glad you had that wonderful experience. I just want people, and I wanted them, for them to open their eyes and look at the greater picture that Final Fantasy is more than Final Fantasy VII, more than Cloud, more than Sephiroth. It's a great game and it's great to enjoy it. But look and try and experience other things and try and keep an open mind because you'll find some great stories, great characters, and wonderful things to love. It's the same type you see people who go I played every Final Fantasy sans 11 and 14 and i'm like why well they're online I don't do online games. I'm like well you're missing two of the best Final Fantasy stories because of that like look past your guilty guilty i've been i've guilty of that like I never played 11 because it was an online game I didn't have a playstation and I played 14 at the behest of a friend who Literally said to me are you gonna play Final Fantasy 14? I'm like no, it's a mmo. I don't play mmos. I don't play online games And she said, you like Final Fantasy, right? And I go, yeah, I like Final Fantasy. I love Final Fantasy. She's like, play 14, play Realm Reborn. She's like, play Realm Reborn. It's a great story. I think you'll love it. And sure enough, she's right. And I played Realm Reborn and I was very into Final Fantasy 14 for six months and I thought it was great. it's, I think the only thing all comes down to what you're exposed to first and your willingness or your appetite to have You know, and I think these days I'd like to think people want more and I think people are more open to expanding their horizons. It's a lot of game to go through. But I agree with you. I think I'm glad the pixel remasters exists. I have my issues with them, but I think as just just having those games available, easy to play, pop in and play on your Switch or Steam. I love it. I love the fact that you can easily get them and have them. I mean, the Pixelware Masters, my biggest issue is they don't include like the advance or the GBA bonus content and stuff. Like you're going to remake a game, make it the complete game. I agree with that. Yeah. All the complete Dungeons, all the extra stuff. That's a very good point. And Final Fantasy 4 Intermission is still locked to the PSP UMD. There's no other release of that. That's right. And on. I still have to play Tactics. I've never played Tactics. Just never again. That's different BS. That's a strategy role playing game. But how did they sell that? It has cloud in it. How do we sell this? And you have to remember strategy role playing games at the time weren't the big things they were. We didn't have Fire Emblem in the States at the time. Ogre battle or not tactics. Ogre did not do very well. It was a new thing. So how do we sell this final fantasy version over to the, it has cloud in it. I and it came after, if you notice, the tactics released before eight. So tactics was the next release after seven. So all those, they were banking on all those people who had played seven and loved seven. They're going to buy this because it's got the final fantasy name and clouds in it, even though it's a completely different series, a different world and a different type of game. And it's sold tactics and it worked. And they realize at that point they can utilize final fantasy seven to manipulate the audiences, to buy whatever they want. And that's the reason people bought a PS4 and it's the reason people bought, you know, a PS5 now. they'll continue. And that's the main reason. It's every other thing. If they put Final Fantasy on any platform, if they said, hey, guess what? We're resurrecting the Ouya and we're going to put Final Fantasy 7 Part 3 exclusive to the Ouya. Guarantee you people will be buying the Ouya like crazy. Just about does it for this edition of A Gamer Looks At 40. If you enjoy this, and I can't imagine you not, then mosey on over to agamerlooksat40.com for zero that has all of the Final Fantasy episodes in the full series playlist section. Just make sure you refresh the page when you get in there. There's a weird bug on the website that prevents the players from loading right away. They hit it again and it works just fine. That way you can binge all of the Final Fantasy series in addition to the Legend of Zelda series, the Earthbound series and Tales from the Bargain Bin. And as always, comments and ratings on your pod player of choice are greatly appreciated. Next week is another one on one interview that is essentially the counterpoint to today's episode. So if you weren't a big fan of the negativity, even though I felt it was pretty well balanced, Check out next week we talk with somebody who ranks Final Fantasy 7 as not only one of his favorite games but one of the video games that got him into the medium in the first place. As always many thanks to Pete Harney and Kev from the Discord for helping me edit up these interviews. Many thanks again to my patrons and thank you for listening to this edition of A Gamer Looks At 40 and until next time just be kind to yourselves and each other.